Talk:Christianity and Noahide Law - Revision history

84.135.140.98: do many christians claim to be noahides?

2007-06-13T16:56:05Z

do many christians claim to be noahides?

Abrahamson at 09:37, 13 February 2007

2007-02-13T09:37:51Z

Abrahamson at 09:37, 13 February 2007

2007-02-13T09:37:05Z

Abrahamson: Talk:Christianity moved to Talk:Christianity and Noahide Law: The page Christianity should be left for a description of that faith

2007-02-12T13:45:11Z

Talk:Christianity moved to Talk:Christianity and Noahide Law: The page Christianity should be left for a description of that faith

Abrahamson at 12:46, 31 January 2007

2007-01-31T12:46:37Z

Abrahamson at 12:46, 31 January 2007

2007-01-31T12:46:20Z

216.180.77.97: Misleading

2007-01-30T23:52:07Z

Misleading

Tzvi: Continued...

2006-09-25T20:13:27Z

Continued...

Abrahamson: /* Maimonides' view */

2006-09-25T10:44:49Z

‎Maimonides' view

Abrahamson: /* Maimonides' view */

2006-09-25T07:36:40Z

‎Maimonides' view

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:56, 13 June 2007
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	I have completely rewritten the whole article. I hope you will find it much more fact filled and accurate. As always, you are invited to contribute. --[[User:Abrahamson\|Abrahamson]] 04:37, 13 February 2007 (EST)		I have completely rewritten the whole article. I hope you will find it much more fact filled and accurate. As always, you are invited to contribute. --[[User:Abrahamson\|Abrahamson]] 04:37, 13 February 2007 (EST)
		+
		+	== do many christians claim to be noahides? ==
		+
		+	I mean, I am christian, and I do agree that the noahide laws, which I cannot find so clearly in my bible, but I gotta make my own translation, I find those laws good and according to what I beleve G-d wants from us.
		+	But: As a Christian I do believe that we are all sinners. So it is not only the question, whether we are idolatrists, but whether we can keep only one of the laws. I find that I do not, though I want to. So I could never be a noahide, but on the other hand, this does not hurt my faith and religious feelings.
		+	I never wanted to be a noahide, I don't even try to follow religious laws, as my christain faith tells me, I can never succeed in obey even one rule.
		+
		+	I just wanted to mention that. shalom alehem
		+	De Benny

@@ Line 5: / Line 5: @@
 [[User:Abrahamson|Abrahamson]] 11:11, 4 July 2006 (EDT)
-== Maimonides' view ==
+== First Draft ==
 Please explain what is difficult to ascertain about Maimonides' view. In Hilchot Avodah Zarah, chapter 9, halacha 4, he states explicitly, "Hanotzrim ovdei avodah zarah hem...." (trans.: The Christians are idolaters...)[[User:Tzvi|Tzvi]] 21:34, 24 September 2006 (EDT)
-== Continued... ==
+=== Continued... ===
 Thinking further, this whole piece is very misleading. The "orthodox view" presented really is the view of Maimonides. I have looked in Hilchos Makholos Assuros in the editions that I have and there is no mention of Notzrim. The reference in Hilchos Avodah Zarah is as explicit as you can get.
 Furthermore, the "liberal orthodox" view is even more misleading: The Tosafos and the Rema mentioned are not discussing whether Christianity is Avodah Zarah--they are discussing whether a Jew can be responsible for a Christian taking an oath: Is the god he will be swearing to the one G_d of heaven and earth, or a trinity? Since, in their words, his intent is to the One Maker of Heaven and Earth, we are allowed to bring him to an oath. But that cannot be extended to stating that someone who attends a church full of icons and bows to them, invoking the trinity repeatedly is not an idolater![[User:Tzvi|Tzvi]] 16:13, 25 September 2006 (EDT)
-== Misleading ==
+=== Misleading ===
 This article is misleading in that it presumes one must adhere somewhat to the Sheva Mitzvot to be a Noachide. All gentiles are Noachides. Some are observant of the seven laws and some are not. But they are still Noachides.

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:37, 13 February 2007
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	:Good points. It was brought from the Wikipedia article on Noahides. It needs a lot of work. It should not just reflect the Rambam's view, which even that it does poorly. Please register and help out. --[[User:Abrahamson\|Abrahamson]] 07:46, 31 January 2007 (EST)		:Good points. It was brought from the Wikipedia article on Noahides. It needs a lot of work. It should not just reflect the Rambam's view, which even that it does poorly. Please register and help out. --[[User:Abrahamson\|Abrahamson]] 07:46, 31 January 2007 (EST)
		+
		+	== Complete Rewrite ==
		+
		+	I have completely rewritten the whole article. I hope you will find it much more fact filled and accurate. As always, you are invited to contribute. --[[User:Abrahamson\|Abrahamson]] 04:37, 13 February 2007 (EST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:46, 31 January 2007
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	Humanity is divided into two sets; B'nei Yisrael (Jews) and B'nei Noach (gentiles). One is either a Jew or a Gentile. Just as there are observant Jews, atheist Jews, christian Jews, and so forth there are also observant Noachides, atheist Noachides, christian Noachides, etc.		Humanity is divided into two sets; B'nei Yisrael (Jews) and B'nei Noach (gentiles). One is either a Jew or a Gentile. Just as there are observant Jews, atheist Jews, christian Jews, and so forth there are also observant Noachides, atheist Noachides, christian Noachides, etc.

−	Good points. It was brought from the Wikipedia article on Noahides. It needs a lot of work. It should not just reflect the Rambam's view, which even that it does poorly. Please register and help out. --[[User:Abrahamson\|Abrahamson]] 07:46, 31 January 2007 (EST)	+	:Good points. It was brought from the Wikipedia article on Noahides. It needs a lot of work. It should not just reflect the Rambam's view, which even that it does poorly. Please register and help out. --[[User:Abrahamson\|Abrahamson]] 07:46, 31 January 2007 (EST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:46, 31 January 2007
Line 19:		Line 19:

	Humanity is divided into two sets; B'nei Yisrael (Jews) and B'nei Noach (gentiles). One is either a Jew or a Gentile. Just as there are observant Jews, atheist Jews, christian Jews, and so forth there are also observant Noachides, atheist Noachides, christian Noachides, etc.		Humanity is divided into two sets; B'nei Yisrael (Jews) and B'nei Noach (gentiles). One is either a Jew or a Gentile. Just as there are observant Jews, atheist Jews, christian Jews, and so forth there are also observant Noachides, atheist Noachides, christian Noachides, etc.
		+
		+	Good points. It was brought from the Wikipedia article on Noahides. It needs a lot of work. It should not just reflect the Rambam's view, which even that it does poorly. Please register and help out. --[[User:Abrahamson\|Abrahamson]] 07:46, 31 January 2007 (EST)

← Older revision	Revision as of 13:45, 12 February 2007
(No difference)

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:52, 30 January 2007
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	Thinking further, this whole piece is very misleading. The "orthodox view" presented really is the view of Maimonides. I have looked in Hilchos Makholos Assuros in the editions that I have and there is no mention of Notzrim. The reference in Hilchos Avodah Zarah is as explicit as you can get.		Thinking further, this whole piece is very misleading. The "orthodox view" presented really is the view of Maimonides. I have looked in Hilchos Makholos Assuros in the editions that I have and there is no mention of Notzrim. The reference in Hilchos Avodah Zarah is as explicit as you can get.
	Furthermore, the "liberal orthodox" view is even more misleading: The Tosafos and the Rema mentioned are not discussing whether Christianity is Avodah Zarah--they are discussing whether a Jew can be responsible for a Christian taking an oath: Is the god he will be swearing to the one G_d of heaven and earth, or a trinity? Since, in their words, his intent is to the One Maker of Heaven and Earth, we are allowed to bring him to an oath. But that cannot be extended to stating that someone who attends a church full of icons and bows to them, invoking the trinity repeatedly is not an idolater![[User:Tzvi\|Tzvi]] 16:13, 25 September 2006 (EDT)		Furthermore, the "liberal orthodox" view is even more misleading: The Tosafos and the Rema mentioned are not discussing whether Christianity is Avodah Zarah--they are discussing whether a Jew can be responsible for a Christian taking an oath: Is the god he will be swearing to the one G_d of heaven and earth, or a trinity? Since, in their words, his intent is to the One Maker of Heaven and Earth, we are allowed to bring him to an oath. But that cannot be extended to stating that someone who attends a church full of icons and bows to them, invoking the trinity repeatedly is not an idolater![[User:Tzvi\|Tzvi]] 16:13, 25 September 2006 (EDT)
		+
		+	== Misleading ==
		+
		+	This article is misleading in that it presumes one must adhere somewhat to the Sheva Mitzvot to be a Noachide. All gentiles are Noachides. Some are observant of the seven laws and some are not. But they are still Noachides.
		+
		+	Humanity is divided into two sets; B'nei Yisrael (Jews) and B'nei Noach (gentiles). One is either a Jew or a Gentile. Just as there are observant Jews, atheist Jews, christian Jews, and so forth there are also observant Noachides, atheist Noachides, christian Noachides, etc.

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:13, 25 September 2006
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	Please explain what is difficult to ascertain about Maimonides' view. In Hilchot Avodah Zarah, chapter 9, halacha 4, he states explicitly, "Hanotzrim ovdei avodah zarah hem...." (trans.: The Christians are idolaters...)[[User:Tzvi\|Tzvi]] 21:34, 24 September 2006 (EDT)		Please explain what is difficult to ascertain about Maimonides' view. In Hilchot Avodah Zarah, chapter 9, halacha 4, he states explicitly, "Hanotzrim ovdei avodah zarah hem...." (trans.: The Christians are idolaters...)[[User:Tzvi\|Tzvi]] 21:34, 24 September 2006 (EDT)
		+
		+	== Continued... ==
		+
		+	Thinking further, this whole piece is very misleading. The "orthodox view" presented really is the view of Maimonides. I have looked in Hilchos Makholos Assuros in the editions that I have and there is no mention of Notzrim. The reference in Hilchos Avodah Zarah is as explicit as you can get.
		+	Furthermore, the "liberal orthodox" view is even more misleading: The Tosafos and the Rema mentioned are not discussing whether Christianity is Avodah Zarah--they are discussing whether a Jew can be responsible for a Christian taking an oath: Is the god he will be swearing to the one G_d of heaven and earth, or a trinity? Since, in their words, his intent is to the One Maker of Heaven and Earth, we are allowed to bring him to an oath. But that cannot be extended to stating that someone who attends a church full of icons and bows to them, invoking the trinity repeatedly is not an idolater![[User:Tzvi\|Tzvi]] 16:13, 25 September 2006 (EDT)

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:44, 25 September 2006
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	Please explain what is difficult to ascertain about Maimonides' view. In Hilchot Avodah Zarah, chapter 9, halacha 4, he states explicitly, "Hanotzrim ovdei avodah zarah hem...." (trans.: The Christians are idolaters...)[[User:Tzvi\|Tzvi]] 21:34, 24 September 2006 (EDT)		Please explain what is difficult to ascertain about Maimonides' view. In Hilchot Avodah Zarah, chapter 9, halacha 4, he states explicitly, "Hanotzrim ovdei avodah zarah hem...." (trans.: The Christians are idolaters...)[[User:Tzvi\|Tzvi]] 21:34, 24 September 2006 (EDT)
−	~~:That text was copied from wikipedia, go ahead and make changes if you know how. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahide_Laws] --[[User:Abrahamson\|Abrahamson]] 03:24, 25 September 2006 (EDT)~~

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:36, 25 September 2006
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	Please explain what is difficult to ascertain about Maimonides' view. In Hilchot Avodah Zarah, chapter 9, halacha 4, he states explicitly, "Hanotzrim ovdei avodah zarah hem...." (trans.: The Christians are idolaters...)[[User:Tzvi\|Tzvi]] 21:34, 24 September 2006 (EDT)		Please explain what is difficult to ascertain about Maimonides' view. In Hilchot Avodah Zarah, chapter 9, halacha 4, he states explicitly, "Hanotzrim ovdei avodah zarah hem...." (trans.: The Christians are idolaters...)[[User:Tzvi\|Tzvi]] 21:34, 24 September 2006 (EDT)
−	:That text was copied from wikipedia [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahide_Laws] --[[User:Abrahamson\|Abrahamson]] 03:24, 25 September 2006 (EDT)	+	:That text was copied from wikipedia, go ahead and make changes if you know how. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahide_Laws] --[[User:Abrahamson\|Abrahamson]] 03:24, 25 September 2006 (EDT)